Curse

Slirith · Jan 09, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

everytime i get into a group, im always asked if im resto and when i say no, i get kicked >.> i refuse to be a healbot/weapon bot so i never took any resto skills

draxynnic · Jan 09, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Generally, it's because of the general shortage of healers. They're not discriminating specifically against nonhealing Ritualists, it's because they're simply looking for a healer.

If I were you, I'd either expect to do missions with heroes/henchies/guildies, or I'd bite the bullet and pick up the skills you need to make a healer build. That way, you can go into a party and say "I'd prefer to use (insert non-healing build here), but if we need the healing, I can switch."

In my experience, by doing this, I've found that about half the time I've ended up not being the healer after all - however, even then, the offer is usually appreciated. Just keep in mind all the times you've waited in vain for a healer to show up to fill out the party (if you've never been in such a situation, you're luckier than most) - even if you don't personally enjoy the role, in a cooperative game, when you're playing a profession that can serve as a healer than every so often you should be willing to take it for the team so that everybody can get through the mission. A little bit of flexibility can go a long way.

Epinephrine · Jan 09, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Think about it - why do we assume monks are healers? Because that's what they are needed for. Seldom is a group looking for the damage a smiter can deal, they want a monk for healing. A group looking for firepower may want a channeling rit, but there are many professions vying for the role of damage dealer, and only really two that can do a reasonable job of healing (support healing can come from dervish and paragons with the right setup, but unless they are really odd builds they simply don't heal well enough for a healing role).

Many groups fill up on damage dealers fast, leaving them to spam "GLF 2 monks!" for hours. They probably opt for a ritualist, on a blind invite, to see if you are a healer and if so grab you before another group spamming "GLF 2 monks!" does. When you don't heal they drop you, since they didn't want a rit specifically, they want a healer.

What I don't get is why people even ask what you do. I have about a dozen rit templates saved, varying from full offense to full defense. Full unlock for ritualist, with monk, mesmer and paragon unlocks to support it, as well as some decent minion stuff for Rt/N. If I need to swap it's painless, fast and I can fill most roles... so why bother asking what someone does? Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...

Oh, and refusing to heal is just being a stubborn jerk - everyone needs to make sacrifices sometimes. You would probably be annoyed (and rightfully so) if you had a ranger in the group and you said "Winter really helps here, the enemies are weak against cold damage" and he said "I never use Winter. Nobody can make me."

Being a healer may not always be the solution, but it can be worth trying - there are even some fun partial healing builds out there - the channeling line offers a few skills which are handy an cast on an ally (Splinter weapon, Ancestor's rage) that blend well with healing - allowing you to play two roles.

Pick Me · Jan 09, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Group needs healers because they tend not to be careful enough not to get killed. Protectors/Communors are good as well, but people tend to like healers because they themselves (for some odd reason) lack the ability to heal themselves.

If people always assumes that a healer will heal them, they will continuously fight non-stop and expect to survive. They ignore the pleas of others and they ignore the damage they themselves are taking.

As a monk (healer, protector, bonder) and as a Ritualist (Restorer and Communor) I see this happen more often than I'd like. I'll retreat (if possible) and ping everyone to join me to regroup. Over aggroing is a constant problem I find in PUGs.

If you don't take restoration skills, then you don't self heal either. So what do you use to rez (Rez Signet, Jar, Restoration, or no rez at all). A group of 7 non-monks/ritualists, and you want to join them with no healing whatso ever, can you not see a problem?

Sihaya Syme · Jan 09, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

If I need to swap it's painless, fast and I can fill most roles... so why bother asking what someone does? Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...

I don't see what's wrong with creating a build you like and are good with, and sticking to it. Just like I don't get why many are so convinced that if you don't change your secondary for this-and-this area, you can never get anywhere.

If you can play multiple builds and be equally good at all of them, congratulations to you!

But people forget sometimes that not everyone is equally talented. Gaming and tactics can be hard. Some people have a reason for sticking to one build. That doesn't mean they're stupid or bad players. Maybe they just want a certain something from their character. That doesn't mean it has to get boring.

About ritualist expectations... It's the same with all classes, I think. Everyone sees warriors as the tanks, the ele's as the nukers, and so on. It's just stereotypes. I wouldn't bother with it too much

FoxBat · Jan 09, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Group needs healers because they tend not to be careful enough not to get killed. Protectors/Communors are good as well, but people tend to like healers because they themselves (for some odd reason) lack the ability to heal themselves.

There's a reason we make fun of wammos, having 8 warriors with mending and healing signet is not as efficient as 6 pure damage warriors and two monks in any remotely challenging area, or having some stance tanks if you really needed the defense. Not to say that self-heal is worse than no heal or insufficient heal with a lack of monks, or that other things you mentioned like kiting and over-aggroing aren't important for mitigating damage, but as long as your group doesn't need to split (most of PvE), only a few classes will find a self-heal efficient when healer classes are avaliable.

Epinephrine · Jan 09, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme

I don't see what's wrong with creating a build you like and are good with, and sticking to it. Just like I don't get why many are so convinced that if you don't change your secondary for this-and-this area, you can never get anywhere.

Well, I think that you learn little that way, and get stuck making the same mistakes a lot. You can also easily find that you can't effectively group up - "Oh, we've already got a minion master". Flexibility and learning to think through a problem are good skills, and even if it's just swapping a few skills around, it teaches you to adapt. Plugging away with a single build is like driving screws in with a hammer, because it worked so well with the nails you were using. Sure, you can drive them that way, but it's simply not efficient. And substituting the hammer for a bottle opener or cork screw may get the liquid out, but it's inferior to just picking up the right tool for a task.

I would never say that you can't do an area with a given build, or that you should always re-skill before adventuring, but there are times when one should at least look at the options and re-evaluate. Not to do so is just insulting to the 3 pounds of meat you carry in that box on your shoulders.

frojack · Jan 09, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

I have personally gone for defensive builds lately with Weapon of Remedy/ Reversal of Damage (credit to the guys that found this combo) and a semi-smite/heal build. I love running it.
However, I rarely ever do 'pure' healing as a Rit. Though I may 'semi-heal' to support the monks. I just don't feel as effective at healing as a monk. I've done it enough, and that's how I feel about it.
So to assume someone who chooses to 'not' be a healing Rit is a 'stubborn jerk' is way out of line and bordering on asinine...

TheUndertaker · Jan 09, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I don't think someone who refuses to heal as a rit is a "stubborn jerk." However, I don't think they should expect to get picked up in a lot of groups either. There's an extreme shortage of healers in the game, so if you have the ability to heal, ppl want you to do it. Luckily, my heros have yet to kick me out of the group for refusing to play the healer. Not saying they won't, but they haven't yet.

Epinephrine · Jan 09, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

So to assume someone who chooses to 'not' be a healing Rit is a 'stubborn jerk' is way out of line and bordering on asinine...

No, what I said was that refusing to ever heal is. It's completely selfish. If my guild needs me to step up and heal I will. If I'm in a group and we lose a monk, and they need me to change build, I will. If nobody else has a character that far/able to serve in that role, somebody has to. Not helping people with simple requests on some vague principle like "I won't heal" is being a bit of a jerk. Luckily, pretty much everyone I play with (as I play within an alliance) is a decent, intelligent adult, and we can generally get whatever we need in a party to succeed - even if it means that a ritualist may have to heal a bit. Obviously one doesn't necessarily always want to play heal-bot, but others may not either, and expecting others to pick up the slack so you can play your channeling-bot all the time is silly.

Sihaya Syme · Jan 09, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

But 'forcing' someone to play a build he's not used to will only get bad results, and I don't think anyone is going to be happy when a ritualist who isn't used to having to heal suddenly has to take the part and fail.

I for one do not want to get flamed for something like that. And flamed you'll get in such a situation.

Prefectus · Jan 09, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

hmm get in to groups early and tell them youre build ive never been kicked for being a damage rit. but then agen i have loged to help groups with my monk if needed although my monk has done just about everything there is to do lol

Coloneh · Jan 09, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Lightning magic>channeling

so much more damage

Redfeather1975 · Jan 09, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

Lightning magic>channeling

so much more damage

If all you are using skills for is lightning damage then yes!
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!

Epinephrine · Jan 09, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

If all you are using skills for is lightning damage then yes!
Both Air and Channeling have very different skills!

Agreed. Channeling has interrupts, health gain, energy management and so on. Just like air has knockdown, blind and weakness. All depends on what you need. And Channeling is more efficient damage, working better if energy is a concern.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 10, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I think if it's somehow necessary to gauge a profession by what they are simply the best at I would say that the ritualist is the best at self preservation.
What other profession can keep itself alive better against any type of damage ,without relying on a secondary or easily removed enchantments, than a ritualist?
What other profession can ressurect themself! Through Frozen Soil even! lol

Redfeather1975 · Jan 10, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

The lag is driving me wonky bonkers! Must....not....hit reply more than once.

Ensign · Jan 10, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Are people really so unimaginative that they find a build they like and use it at every mission, all the time? How boring...

Yes, a lot of players play this way. It isn't too surprising given the competition and other games they've likely played - those haven't allowed for the sort of build hot-swapping that Guild Wars does. If you played Diablo II, if you wanted to change your template you have to make a new character. As a result, not only do people play this way (one character, one build) but that are honestly incredulous that you would imply that they play otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

There's a reason we make fun of wammos, having 8 warriors with mending and healing signet is not as efficient as 6 pure damage warriors and two monks in any remotely challenging area

This isn't directed at you, but you've prompted me to comment with this.

Sure, we make fun of W/Mos for running Mending and the like in a team situation where those skills really don't accomplish much - we'd much rather have our Warrior spend their skills and energy on killing things and only incidentally care about staying alive.

There is a caveat to that, that I think gets overlooked by all the belittling. The W/Mo did get one thing right, and that is that the burden of staying alive is not placed entirely on the Monks. Oftentimes, it feels like more offensively oriented characters treat the Monks as an endless font of healing that lets them do whatever they want, and that simply isn't the case.

I might be giving your average player too much credit, but I think people play much more cautiously when they know they don't have a Monk around. That mentality needs to remain even when you have a Monk.

The Warrior/Monk gets made fun of because he charges in like a moron, takes a ton of damage, and his meager healing can't possibly keep up with the damage coming in. That's not too far removed from how many other characters play, however, with multiple superior runes, no defense, and an active distaste for kiting.

Peace,
-CxE

draxynnic · Jan 10, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme

But 'forcing' someone to play a build he's not used to will only get bad results, and I don't think anyone is going to be happy when a ritualist who isn't used to having to heal suddenly has to take the part and fail.

I for one do not want to get flamed for something like that. And flamed you'll get in such a situation.

Generally, the people who do so are Leeroys who think the healers can somehow keep them alive regardless of however stupid they are. I've yet to be flamed from another player who's actually shown respectable competance themselves... On the other side of the equation, I don't think I've ever blamed a human healer for a time that I've died - normally, I can trace it to my own stupidity or a mistake someone else has made that has simply led to the healing being overwhelmed. (NPC healers, on the other hand... sometimes their healing priority can be a little... off.)

On "forcing someone to play a build (s)he's not used to": Well, people can learn. Every healer in the game started somewhere. It's my personal belief that every player should play a healer sometime. It doesn't need to be their favourite character, nor does it have to be permanent... but at the very least, every player should get enough experience to have a basic idea of what the healer can and can't do. And if you're playing a profession like the Ritualist - that can heal, but which Ritualist players often prefer to use for other things - such experience will set you in good stead for when you are asked to fill the role.

One thing I did getting through Prophecies with my monks is that, while henching, I did it without support. You don't get a second monk henchman until the desert, so in order to push myself to be at least as good as Alesia, I left Alesia behind while henching unless there was an area I was having particular difficulty with. This wasn't out of any sense of stubborness...simply that I thought it would be good practise for later.

The bottom line is: You don't need to be the best healer in the game to be better than no healer at all. Personally, as long as no one had Survivor title tracks they were nursing (and if so, they shouldn't be pugging) and it wasn't a Masters group, I'd rather fail a mission with inexperienced healers (especially if they were up-front about it) than not go on the mission at all. That way, everyone gets a bit of XP and loot from the failed attempt, the healers get some experience with the build, other players can come up with ways to counter whatever killed the party and otherwise shore up the healers' shortcomings, and give it another go. And at the end of the day, you may all get through the mission after a couple of hours and a couple of failed attempts, while another group may still be spamming for their 'perfect' group.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 10, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Generally people think of rits as monks by another name simply because rits are currently almost worthless as pure damage dealers. *Screams as the angry mob tears me to pieces*. Rits focusing on nothing but the craptacular channeling damage spells are missing out on an awful lot. Good rit builds generally incorporate a hefty amount of group defense, with a little pain thrown back at the other side for good measure.
This doesn't mean all rits should concentrate on nothing but healing, but keep in mind that part of your job as a rit is to take some pressure off the monks, however many there may be.

For any class, you should be willing to change your build every time you go into a new area. When playing with more conditional classes, like mesmers, rits, and necros, I make a point of clearing my skillbar and remaking it with every new area so I'm best set up to counter whatever I'll be facing.

Never changing your build because you're "uncomfortable" only leads to flare spamming warriors with frenzy and power attack because those were the first skills they got in pre.